[MachineShop] Prioritization

[Denis Muradov]

The second person can be anyone. They just need to be able to call 911.
That's it.

On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 5:48 PM S Ford <sford.soar at gmail.com> wrote:

> With regard to the 2 person rule.  Does the second person need to be a
> QueLab member?  In other words, could my girlfriend be my second person in
> the shop with me?
>
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 7:45 PM S Ford <sford.soar at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the update.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 3:25 PM Denis Muradov <denis.muradov at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The South Bend lathe. I will leave the belt configuration as is.
>>> Currently it has a single phase VFD on it. At the previous building I
>>> complained to Bill that the wiring was causing tripping issues, so he
>>> installed solid conduit. Right now, it does not have any wires. Bill is
>>> trying to get the CNC wood machine working so he is unavailable to work on
>>> it. I will look and see if I can wire it without conduit. I'll try to think
>>> of something.
>>>
>>> The Mill, Bridgeport and Bandsaw are currently functional, just buried
>>> under junk. The hardness tester needs its tooling organized. I need to
>>> figure out an optimal placement for the grinder.
>>>
>>> Training for the hardness tester would be useful. I found it difficult
>>> to remember the steps myself, even after going through the documentation
>>> for it. I'm wondering if it might be useful to record it and then go back
>>> and break the steps down.
>>>
>>> The EDM discussion was about two different EDM machines. One was about a
>>> shop machine that was being discarded, and another discussion was about an
>>> EDM project that can be installed on a 3D printer. The shop EDM machine was
>>> a no go for a number of reasons: it was non-functional, it would need a
>>> large investment, it would take up a lot of space, it was the wrong
>>> voltage, it had little resale value, and it would be very expensive to
>>> move. The second option was more viable, it was a project called
>>> “Powercore.” Another member bought one of the components themselves. This
>>> involves putting EDM like components on to a 3D printer. My main concern
>>> was that research into safety procedures should done, since little is known
>>> about the hazards of this process by most people (including me). Being the
>>> size of a 3D printer, space didn't seem like an issue. I doubt such a
>>> hypothetical machine would have the tolerances needed since 3D printers are
>>> open-loop (no absolute position encoders). But it could be useful.
>>>
>>> I partly think that separate training for the smaller lathes, if the
>>> user has had training on the SouthBend, isn't needed. Basic documentation,
>>> manual, or etc on the operation of those machines would save a lot of time.
>>> But I also agree that training of any kind would make their use safer. It’s
>>> a valid point. In which case, all the machines in the shop should get
>>> training.
>>>
>>> As for the yellow combination lathe/mill, this is going to be a long
>>> explanation.
>>>
>>> The Machine Shop has a two-person rule and many people found it
>>> problematic. It has been the main complaint about the machine shop. Me and
>>> Bill were talked about how to make the machine shop more accessible to
>>> users while also being safe. I went online and tried to feel out the safety
>>> rules to see how we were doing with our procedures to see if the two-person
>>> rule was excessive. But the general advice I received was towards more
>>> safety. There were recommendations that the woodshop should adapt a
>>> two-person rule with the table saw, and that the practice should not be
>>> limited to the machine shop.
>>>
>>> With that, my alternative idea was to pursue a sweet spot of “hobby
>>> machines” which were big enough to use but not big enough to cause serious
>>> injury (as in requiring hospitalization) where the second person rule for
>>> the use of that machine would be dropped. This is the case with the drill
>>> press for example. One makerspace I looked at online had had a hazard class
>>> rating system on their machines. They had their machines rated one through
>>> four, with the last one only being usable by staff. That’s not to say that
>>> dropping the two-person rule on smaller machines will make the machines
>>> safe, since someone determined enough can send themselves to the hospital
>>> from using a pencil wrong, but rather ultimately of lower risk. This would
>>> be machines that have low stored momentum. I'm not sure where to draw line,
>>> but I think the idea of having smaller middle ground machines is worth
>>> trying. Provided there is space.
>>>
>>> This is where the combination lathe/mill machine comes in. Some time ago
>>> we had a 3-in-1 Smithy donated to us from the AFB. It was never maintained
>>> and needed work just to turn on. Additionally, it took as much floor space
>>> as our “real” machines while not having any tooling. The machine Bill
>>> brought in is similar, except that 1) it was a working machine when it was
>>> removed 2) it includes tooling 3) it has a manageable footprint 4) It has a
>>> DRO. On top of that, it is a common popular conversion to CNC. The machine
>>> is also 120V and would have good resale value if we decided to get rid of
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I’m kicking myself for not getting this
>>> https://www.bentleysauction.com/auctions/11007/lot/354129-plas-labs-chamber-w-prazi-sd-300-lathe
>>> I was going to bid on it but by the time I got home I was too tired and
>>> forgot about it. Lathes have issues with stored momentum, and that machine
>>> seemed like it was of a good size without being too big. Granted the amount
>>> of money I could have put down would have been limited. The sherline and
>>> unimat are nice and small, but I don't recall if we have all the tooling
>>> for them.
>>>
>>> The other way to make the machine shop viable, would be if quelab got a
>>> security guard of some kind and/or we have designated machine shop hours.
>>> In theory that’s doable, since we have three lathes and three mills.
>>>
>>> Another option I tried was to get a co-steward to run the shop and train
>>> people. Over the years I never managed to find the right candidate.
>>> Generally everyone filtered out in to two categories: competent but
>>> unavailable, not competent and available. Recently one person said that
>>> they are interested, and I plan on putting them through training once I get
>>> the South Bend going.
>>>
>>> The previous shop steward, Eric, made it all work by keeping regular
>>> office hours every week but that’s just impossible for me with my family
>>> obligations (among other problems I'm not going to list here).
>>>
>>> But there are also some people that think that the two-person rule
>>> should apply to the shop no matter what machine is being used, out of
>>> principle. This is something that would be done under say “shop Thursdays”
>>> when you have a large enough user base to just show up at once. I'm not in
>>> that mindset though. The user base isn't there. Right now having a wall
>>> separating the woodshop and the machine shop means that the second person
>>> would have to be in the machine shop to qualify, and that’s going to be
>>> hard to manage. If people simply ignore it, then we'll have a culture of
>>> ignoring safety and an injury lawsuit on our hands.
>>>
>>> So that’s why that yellow lathe/mill is there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 23, 2025, 6:11 AM S Ford <sford.soar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wish I could come in and help Denis. I’m on travel again next 70 days
>>>> or so; back home for a couple of weeks then out again; back home then gone
>>>> mid June to 8 July….. I have plans to use the Southbend early May or early
>>>> July if it is available
>>>>
>>>> As for priorities that I value:
>>>> - Southbend Lathe; the mill that we test on; the Bridgeport; one of the
>>>> other lathes; bandsaw; hardness tester; pedestal/bench grinder to grind
>>>> cutting tools.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t see the ShopSmith as a useful tool. It doesn’t have the
>>>> precision that I look for.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to get one of the Unimat lathes going: a jewelers size
>>>> lathe can be quite useful on tiny parts; I have experience setting one up
>>>> and maintaining it. And am happy to instruct others in use
>>>>
>>>> Similarly: I’m happy to have a gathering where machine shop folks can
>>>> learn about the hardness tester and how to use it. The utility of it is
>>>> determining the condition of a steel or alloy before one attempts to
>>>> machine it on the other equipment
>>>>
>>>> I can applaud Tim wanting to refurb the EDM and CNC….. and I thought
>>>> that he wanted to recondition and resell those?  but I don’t honestly see
>>>> much utility in having them in the shop unless a user or users are going to
>>>> run numerous parts to support an incubating biz.
>>>>
>>>> As for safety procedures:
>>>> - I thought that the basic procedures for the machines that have been
>>>> developed are good; and that key was training on the machines that one
>>>> would use. I don’t believe in one policy fits all machines and that
>>>> becoming familiar with the basics then getting an introduction to a machine
>>>> and it’s characteristics are key
>>>> - with regard to limiting torque or power on a machine in the name of
>>>> safety……. I would like to avoid that and instead emphasize respect for the
>>>> power of the machine and, when used improperly, for the ability of a
>>>> machine to cause serious injury. To me the risks are no different than
>>>> those that exist in the wood or welding shop areas.
>>>>
>>>> I should be in town all of Fall and early winter. Can come help you, etc
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> > On Feb 22, 2025, at 23:50, Denis Muradov via Machineshop <
>>>> machineshop at quelab.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > 
>>>> > Just brainstorming here.
>>>> >
>>>> > What do you consider a priority right now? Do you consider bringing
>>>> the southbend lathe online, making room or organization a priority? I ask
>>>> because currently organization is much more difficult (back issues) for me
>>>> than repairing things. But if that is what people want, I'll find a way.
>>>> >
>>>> > Bill is stuck working on the wood machine CNC so things involving
>>>> wiring is held up.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Machineshop mailing list
>>>> > Machineshop at quelab.net
>>>> > http://pepper.quelab.net/mailman/listinfo/machineshop
>>>>
>>>
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