[MachineShop] Prioritization

[S Ford]

With regard to the 2 person rule.  Does the second person need to be a
QueLab member?  In other words, could my girlfriend be my second person in
the shop with me?

On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 7:45 PM S Ford <sford.soar at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the update.
>
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 3:25 PM Denis Muradov <denis.muradov at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The South Bend lathe. I will leave the belt configuration as is.
>> Currently it has a single phase VFD on it. At the previous building I
>> complained to Bill that the wiring was causing tripping issues, so he
>> installed solid conduit. Right now, it does not have any wires. Bill is
>> trying to get the CNC wood machine working so he is unavailable to work on
>> it. I will look and see if I can wire it without conduit. I'll try to think
>> of something.
>>
>> The Mill, Bridgeport and Bandsaw are currently functional, just buried
>> under junk. The hardness tester needs its tooling organized. I need to
>> figure out an optimal placement for the grinder.
>>
>> Training for the hardness tester would be useful. I found it difficult to
>> remember the steps myself, even after going through the documentation for
>> it. I'm wondering if it might be useful to record it and then go back and
>> break the steps down.
>>
>> The EDM discussion was about two different EDM machines. One was about a
>> shop machine that was being discarded, and another discussion was about an
>> EDM project that can be installed on a 3D printer. The shop EDM machine was
>> a no go for a number of reasons: it was non-functional, it would need a
>> large investment, it would take up a lot of space, it was the wrong
>> voltage, it had little resale value, and it would be very expensive to
>> move. The second option was more viable, it was a project called
>> “Powercore.” Another member bought one of the components themselves. This
>> involves putting EDM like components on to a 3D printer. My main concern
>> was that research into safety procedures should done, since little is known
>> about the hazards of this process by most people (including me). Being the
>> size of a 3D printer, space didn't seem like an issue. I doubt such a
>> hypothetical machine would have the tolerances needed since 3D printers are
>> open-loop (no absolute position encoders). But it could be useful.
>>
>> I partly think that separate training for the smaller lathes, if the user
>> has had training on the SouthBend, isn't needed. Basic documentation,
>> manual, or etc on the operation of those machines would save a lot of time.
>> But I also agree that training of any kind would make their use safer. It’s
>> a valid point. In which case, all the machines in the shop should get
>> training.
>>
>> As for the yellow combination lathe/mill, this is going to be a long
>> explanation.
>>
>> The Machine Shop has a two-person rule and many people found it
>> problematic. It has been the main complaint about the machine shop. Me and
>> Bill were talked about how to make the machine shop more accessible to
>> users while also being safe. I went online and tried to feel out the safety
>> rules to see how we were doing with our procedures to see if the two-person
>> rule was excessive. But the general advice I received was towards more
>> safety. There were recommendations that the woodshop should adapt a
>> two-person rule with the table saw, and that the practice should not be
>> limited to the machine shop.
>>
>> With that, my alternative idea was to pursue a sweet spot of “hobby
>> machines” which were big enough to use but not big enough to cause serious
>> injury (as in requiring hospitalization) where the second person rule for
>> the use of that machine would be dropped. This is the case with the drill
>> press for example. One makerspace I looked at online had had a hazard class
>> rating system on their machines. They had their machines rated one through
>> four, with the last one only being usable by staff. That’s not to say that
>> dropping the two-person rule on smaller machines will make the machines
>> safe, since someone determined enough can send themselves to the hospital
>> from using a pencil wrong, but rather ultimately of lower risk. This would
>> be machines that have low stored momentum. I'm not sure where to draw line,
>> but I think the idea of having smaller middle ground machines is worth
>> trying. Provided there is space.
>>
>> This is where the combination lathe/mill machine comes in. Some time ago
>> we had a 3-in-1 Smithy donated to us from the AFB. It was never maintained
>> and needed work just to turn on. Additionally, it took as much floor space
>> as our “real” machines while not having any tooling. The machine Bill
>> brought in is similar, except that 1) it was a working machine when it was
>> removed 2) it includes tooling 3) it has a manageable footprint 4) It has a
>> DRO. On top of that, it is a common popular conversion to CNC. The machine
>> is also 120V and would have good resale value if we decided to get rid of
>> it.
>>
>> Having said that, I’m kicking myself for not getting this
>> https://www.bentleysauction.com/auctions/11007/lot/354129-plas-labs-chamber-w-prazi-sd-300-lathe
>> I was going to bid on it but by the time I got home I was too tired and
>> forgot about it. Lathes have issues with stored momentum, and that machine
>> seemed like it was of a good size without being too big. Granted the amount
>> of money I could have put down would have been limited. The sherline and
>> unimat are nice and small, but I don't recall if we have all the tooling
>> for them.
>>
>> The other way to make the machine shop viable, would be if quelab got a
>> security guard of some kind and/or we have designated machine shop hours.
>> In theory that’s doable, since we have three lathes and three mills.
>>
>> Another option I tried was to get a co-steward to run the shop and train
>> people. Over the years I never managed to find the right candidate.
>> Generally everyone filtered out in to two categories: competent but
>> unavailable, not competent and available. Recently one person said that
>> they are interested, and I plan on putting them through training once I get
>> the South Bend going.
>>
>> The previous shop steward, Eric, made it all work by keeping regular
>> office hours every week but that’s just impossible for me with my family
>> obligations (among other problems I'm not going to list here).
>>
>> But there are also some people that think that the two-person rule should
>> apply to the shop no matter what machine is being used, out of principle.
>> This is something that would be done under say “shop Thursdays” when you
>> have a large enough user base to just show up at once. I'm not in that
>> mindset though. The user base isn't there. Right now having a wall
>> separating the woodshop and the machine shop means that the second person
>> would have to be in the machine shop to qualify, and that’s going to be
>> hard to manage. If people simply ignore it, then we'll have a culture of
>> ignoring safety and an injury lawsuit on our hands.
>>
>> So that’s why that yellow lathe/mill is there.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 23, 2025, 6:11 AM S Ford <sford.soar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I wish I could come in and help Denis. I’m on travel again next 70 days
>>> or so; back home for a couple of weeks then out again; back home then gone
>>> mid June to 8 July….. I have plans to use the Southbend early May or early
>>> July if it is available
>>>
>>> As for priorities that I value:
>>> - Southbend Lathe; the mill that we test on; the Bridgeport; one of the
>>> other lathes; bandsaw; hardness tester; pedestal/bench grinder to grind
>>> cutting tools.
>>>
>>> I don’t see the ShopSmith as a useful tool. It doesn’t have the
>>> precision that I look for.
>>>
>>> I would like to get one of the Unimat lathes going: a jewelers size
>>> lathe can be quite useful on tiny parts; I have experience setting one up
>>> and maintaining it. And am happy to instruct others in use
>>>
>>> Similarly: I’m happy to have a gathering where machine shop folks can
>>> learn about the hardness tester and how to use it. The utility of it is
>>> determining the condition of a steel or alloy before one attempts to
>>> machine it on the other equipment
>>>
>>> I can applaud Tim wanting to refurb the EDM and CNC….. and I thought
>>> that he wanted to recondition and resell those?  but I don’t honestly see
>>> much utility in having them in the shop unless a user or users are going to
>>> run numerous parts to support an incubating biz.
>>>
>>> As for safety procedures:
>>> - I thought that the basic procedures for the machines that have been
>>> developed are good; and that key was training on the machines that one
>>> would use. I don’t believe in one policy fits all machines and that
>>> becoming familiar with the basics then getting an introduction to a machine
>>> and it’s characteristics are key
>>> - with regard to limiting torque or power on a machine in the name of
>>> safety……. I would like to avoid that and instead emphasize respect for the
>>> power of the machine and, when used improperly, for the ability of a
>>> machine to cause serious injury. To me the risks are no different than
>>> those that exist in the wood or welding shop areas.
>>>
>>> I should be in town all of Fall and early winter. Can come help you, etc
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Feb 22, 2025, at 23:50, Denis Muradov via Machineshop <
>>> machineshop at quelab.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > 
>>> > Just brainstorming here.
>>> >
>>> > What do you consider a priority right now? Do you consider bringing
>>> the southbend lathe online, making room or organization a priority? I ask
>>> because currently organization is much more difficult (back issues) for me
>>> than repairing things. But if that is what people want, I'll find a way.
>>> >
>>> > Bill is stuck working on the wood machine CNC so things involving
>>> wiring is held up.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Machineshop mailing list
>>> > Machineshop at quelab.net
>>> > http://pepper.quelab.net/mailman/listinfo/machineshop
>>>
>>
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